Norsewulf.dubland, nice way to avoid anything I said with your strawman there. I have not labeled you anti-semitic, nazi or anything like that. I didn't
even hint at it. However, I do think you, like many, display a clear bias against Israel. The outrage leveled at Israel is out of proportion to the
death toll considering how apathetic people are to the killing of about 400,000 people in Darfur. It seems like people are more concerned with who's doing
the killing rather than the killing itself. Who in the west demonstrated when Hamas staged a coup against Fatah and killed nearly 300 people? Who in the west
demonstrated against Hamas' clear and deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians? Who in the west has demonstrated at the murders of religious minorities
(mostly Christians) in Gaza? Why are there more Gaza threads than Darfur threads on message boards?
0 Kudo
As Israel continues to pound the shit out of Gaza...
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 Invunche |
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Posts: 3212 (16/01/09 21:58:11) Arch-Cynic
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I have never had time for privileged people in safe countries who announce that they cannot see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. I gave
up on Amnesty International when it said that Guantanamo Bay, in which the guards killed no one, was the modern equivalent of Stalin's Gulag, through which
the secret police killed millions. - Nick Cohen
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Norsewulf.dubland |
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Posts: 138 (16/01/09 22:27:31) |
When you use the term concentration camp it is not based on a dictionary definition. No, it is a deliberate attempt to invoke imagery of the holocaust.How long have you believed that you know what other people are thinking? Do you use a Ouija board, a magic 8-ball, or do you study chicken entrails in a bowl of water? How do I know this? Because you previously used terminology to the same effect.I used "terminology to the same effect" of invoking imagery of the Holocaust? When did I do that? When I said that Palestinians shooting rockets are terrorists but Israelis shooting WP mortars are just patriots defending the vaterland? That means "father land" and has nothing to do with the Holocaust. It was a much more popular term in Germany around the time of the first World War and earlier (coinciding with the first four Aliyah) than it was during the Nazi era. I was thinking more of the Blitzkrieg invasions that preceeded the Holocaust, in which Germany "defended itself" by invading its neighbors with a column of mechanized infantry, but I never mentioned the Holocaust at all. The fact that two things have specific characteristics which are similar, does not mean that all of their characteristics are similar. There's nothing objective about using Holocaust terminology to describe this situation. The term "concentration camp" is not Holocaust terminology. There were concentration camps during the Holocaust, and some of them were "death camps" and some were not. Many other countries have had concentration camps as well. The definition of concentration camp remains what it is. A Teacup Chihuahua is a dog, and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier is also a dog. I'm just glad that we both agree on one seemingly obvious, but important point: the conflict in and around Israel and the occupied territories has nothing to do with the Holocaust. It funny how "honest objective" people seem to love Islamic death cultsI think its funny that you would assume that I "love Islamic death cults" just because I disapprove of Israel's barbaric tactics. That's a logical fallacy, and it supports what Rambo said earlier. I have no love of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. I think it's a damn shame that the world has been plagued by this three-way goat fucking of a restoration/crusade/jihad over a glorified mound of camel dung. If I had my way, I'd wish them all into the corn field. |
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Norsewulf.dubland |
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Posts: 138 (17/01/09 01:05:44) |
However, I do think you, like many, display a clear bias against Israel. I oppose many of Israel's policies and tactics. I think that the idea of imposing a modern Jewish religious state on land that was already occupied by other people was colossally naive, short-sighted, and maybe a little idiotic. I think that the publicly-stated argument for establishing a homeland in the middle east for a religious group comprised mostly of European immigrants and refugees was not rational or just. But they're there now. If they are committed to stay I just wish that they would begin to understand that every one of their actions causes an equal and opposite reaction, and that they are naive to believe that there will ever be peace in Israel without a stable and prosperous Palestinian state. Even if Israel is barbaric and stupid enough to kill every single Palestinian, there are apparently Saudis and Iranians and Pakistanis who will take up their cause. The outrage leveled at Israel is out of proportion to the death toll considering how apathetic people are to the killing of about 400,000 people in Darfur.So your argument is that Israel is not the worst human rights offender in the world? Well that's worth something, I guess. Hey, congratulations for being surpassed by the Darfur genocide, Israel! You're almost ready to join western civilization. I've seen celebrities all over the media speaking out about Darfur. No one, however, seems to be holding Israel accountable for intentionally targeting civilians. That was what the world didn't like about Osama Bin Laden, by the way, it wasn't his religion or his turban that made him a terrorist. |
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 Rambo123UK |
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Posts: 13761 (17/01/09 01:31:45) Tooth Fairy Agnostic |
But so far as I know, the Sudanese aren't given billions in military aid by the USA, nor does the USA veto or abstain in all votes UN resolution votes
against them. Nor, of course, is the justification for the creation of the state of Sudan based upon the bible...
Should I moan here about the lack of meaningful international response to the humanitarian crisis in Darfur? Possibly. I would moan about it if I thought it might make a difference, but if we are talking about stopping it, I'm not sure how, and if we are talking about bringing people to justice then the ICC has several warrants out, for example. Not that the USA or the Sudan subscribes to the International Criminal Court, but never mind. But since you brought up numbers, the UN estimates 200,000 killed in Darfur, not 400,000, not that it matters, but if we're talking of numbers, what about the 600,000 - 1.2million dead in Iraq? The Sudanese are armed by the Chinese and Russians. The Israelis are armed and backed by the USA. The USA is supposed to be a civilised western democracy, and thus should be held to a higher standard. But why are you trying to deflect criticism of Israel by using Darfur? Others have been accused of that. Why should the conflict in Darfur mean we shouldn't worry ourselves over Israel burning children and civilians with white phosphorous, and cutting off water, power and humanitarian aid? How are their crimes excused by the existence of another outrage? |
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Invunche |
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Posts: 3212 (17/01/09 10:38:50) Arch-Cynic
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Good job of misunderstanding my point, both of you. I was not deflecting criticism at Israel or trying to show that there are worse human rights offenders in
the world. My post wasn't about Israel, Gaza or Dafur. It was about you two and people like you who pick and chose which "crimes against
humanity" to be outraged about. Unless you care equally about civilians being murdered around the world I have zero respect for your opinions. When I read
your posts of "outrage" they sound more like spoiled children complaining they didn't get what they wanted for Christmas than anything else.
Norse, deny all you want. The use of words like "vaterland" and "concentration camp" were clearly meant to invoke holocaust imagery. I don't need to be a mind reader to see hat. Rambo, I must admit constant attempts to bring the US into any debate makes me chuckle. The deliberately distortion/cherry picking of death tolls not so much.
I have never had time for privileged people in safe countries who announce that they cannot see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. I gave
up on Amnesty International when it said that Guantanamo Bay, in which the guards killed no one, was the modern equivalent of Stalin's Gulag, through which
the secret police killed millions. - Nick Cohen
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Ichigo Kurosaki |
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Posts: 723 (17/01/09 10:49:43) |
More Russians died in those camps than Jews. The Nazi records prove that.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Invunche |
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Posts: 3212 (17/01/09 11:03:27) Arch-Cynic
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That's really relevant. Thank you for your input.
I have never had time for privileged people in safe countries who announce that they cannot see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. I gave
up on Amnesty International when it said that Guantanamo Bay, in which the guards killed no one, was the modern equivalent of Stalin's Gulag, through which
the secret police killed millions. - Nick Cohen
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Rambo123UK |
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Posts: 13761 (17/01/09 11:34:23) Tooth Fairy Agnostic |
And your refusal to see anything wrong with either American or Israeli actions is starting to lose it's laughs.
I've got plenty of moral outrage to go around, but Africa is full of genocide, mass rape, war, pillage. Darfur is one of a long line of barbaric conflicts caused by age-old ethnic tensions and mostly too many people with too little resources to go around. Of course you're just deflecting criticism of Israel with your Darfur comments, otherwise what is the point? Let's have a show of hands - is there anyone here who supports the Janjaweed here? Anyone? No? So what's the point of me moaning about it here? There's plenty of stuff I could rant about if I had nothing else to do with my time but the Gaza attacks are current, ongoing, unjust state-sponsored terrorism. I'm sick of America supporting Israel to the hilt no matter what heinous crimes they commit. I blame the bible, and the right-wing christian fuckwits running the USA who believe god gave the Jews the title deed to that land. |
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Rambo123UK |
IDF shoot at UN School now | |||||||||
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Posts: 13761 (17/01/09 13:41:48) Tooth Fairy Agnostic |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...d/middle_east/7834255.stm
Gaza strikes ahead of truce vote
Israel's military has carried out 50 air strikes in Gaza overnight as its cabinet prepares to vote on a proposal for a unilateral ceasefire. Palestinians say a tank shell hit a UN school in northern Gaza, killing at least two people sheltering there. Israel says it is checking the report. The UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) said Israel's actions in Gaza should be investigated as possible war crimes. Hamas said it would ignore any truce if its conditions were not met. A spokesman for the militant group, Osama Abu Hemdan, told AFP news agency: "As long as it [the Israeli military] remains in Gaza, resistance and confrontation will continue." Israeli warplanes renewed bombing raids on Gaza just before dawn on Saturday, with heavy explosions south of Gaza City.
United Nations officials say two children, aged five and seven, were killed when Israeli tank fire hit a UN school where hundreds had taken shelter in the northern town of Beit Lahiya. A spokesman for Unrwa in Gaza, Chris Gunness, said: "There has to be an investigation to determine whether a war crime has been committed." This is not the first time the UN has talked about war crimes in Gaza. Earlier this month, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said some Israeli actions reported in Gaza might warrant prosecutions for war crimes. Israel's security cabinet will vote on Saturday evening on whether to declare a ceasefire, after its government said it thought "significant progress" had been made at talks with Egyptian mediators in Cairo.
Israeli warplanes bombed Gaza before dawn on Saturday Under the Egyptian proposal, fighting would stop immediately for 10 days and Israeli forces would remain in Gaza while the border crossings into the territory would remain closed. Rocket attacks For its part, Egypt would, with international help, try to shut down weapons smuggling routes on its boundary with Gaza and discussions on opening the crossings would take place at a later date. Hamas insists any ceasefire must involve Israeli troops withdrawing from Gaza and an immediate lifting of the Israeli blockade. Hamas officials are expected to attend further talks on Saturday in Cairo.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev earlier told the BBC he thought Israel may have achieved enough in its three-week offensive to allow a ceasefire. "I think we're seeing the pieces of the puzzle fall into place and we see the foundations for what we see as a long-term calm in the south," he said. But on Friday Palestinian militants in Gaza reportedly fired more than 15 rockets at southern Israel, leaving five Israelis wounded. Israel's main objective in Operation Cast Lead is to end Gaza militants' ability to fire rockets at Israel and stop them smuggling through tunnels from Egypt. US-Israel deal On Friday, Israel and the US signed a deal in Washington that calls for expanded intelligence co-operation between their two countries to prevent Hamas smuggling arms into Gaza if a ceasefire is implemented. Under the agreement, the US will provide detection and surveillance equipment, as well as logistical help and training to Israel, Egypt and other nations for monitoring Gaza's land and sea boundaries.
In the US capital, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Israel would have to suspend any ceasefire if Hamas continued to fire rockets. The Palestinian health ministry in Gaza has told the BBC that 1,193 people have been killed, including 410 children and 108 women since the conflict began on 27 December. There were 5,300 people wounded, including 1,600 children, the ministry said. Thirteen Israelis, mostly soldiers, have been killed during the campaign. On Friday night, the UN General Assembly in New York overwhelmingly passed a resolution calling for an immediate and durable ceasefire in Gaza, leading to a full withdrawal of Israeli troops. The BBC's Christian Fraser in southern Gaza says the situation for Palestinian families there is tough, with food and electricity supplies limited and no running water. He says in the skies above can be heard the scream of F-16 jets circling for their next targets. |
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Norsewulf.dubland |
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Posts: 138 (17/01/09 14:00:54) |
Good job of misunderstanding my point, both of you. I was not deflecting criticism at Israel or trying to show that there are worse human rights offenders in the world. My post wasn't about Israel, Gaza or Dafur. It was about you two and people like you who pick and chose which "crimes against humanity" to be outraged about.So you're assuming that I'm not "outraged" about Darfur if I'm "outraged" about Israel? Isn't that a false dilemma fallacy? Isn't that like "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here...he he...now watch this drive"? Are you claiming that I'm diverting valuable outrage resources away from Darfur? Isn't it possible that I am also concerned about Darfur and many other humanitarian crises all over the globe at the same time as I am concerned about the situation in Gaza but that this thread deals with Israel, not Darfur? That is the reason for the "bias" in emphasis on Israel in this thread. There is no big debate over Darfur because, as Rambo pointed out, no one defends the Janjawid or any of the thugs who are killing people over there. There are, however, many specious arguments concocted by neo-con think tanks and televangelists, and repeated throughout the media, in defense of Israel's policies regarding the Palestinians. In fact, if anyone dares to be objective about Israel, including past U.S. Presidents, they are blacklisted, and immediately become the target of a propaganda campaign. ...and if I had dared to mention Darfur in this discussion, you probably would have accused me of "evoking genocide imagery". Unless you care equally about civilians being murdered around the world I have zero respect for your opinions. When I read your posts of "outrage" they sound more like spoiled children complaining they didn't get what they wanted for Christmas than anything else.You've gone from deflecting toward Darfur to deflecting back to the person making the argument. You don't have to respect my opinions, or the people of Gaza, or anything else, Invunche, but you will need to put more thought into the substance of your own position than in making ad hominem attacks if you are to convince anyone that there is any merit to your argument. In a debate, an ad hominem means [click] you're out of ammo. Norse, deny all you want. The use of words like "vaterland" and "concentration camp" were clearly meant to invoke holocaust imagery.First of all, how did I acquire this power to subconsciously evoke vivid images in your mind? Is there a list of mental images that you would prefer that I not introduce into the Matrix? "Vaterland" I used, to evoke an image of uncompromising quasi-religious nationalism. "Concentration camp" was meant to evoke an image of...uh...a concentration camp...where undesirables are concentrated and surrounded by a wall and provided with essentials like food, water, and medical treatment at the discretion of their captors. I'm sorry but the term "concentration camp" is not a registered servicemark of any one particular belligerent nationalist apartheid state. Would you prefer that I use a more politically neutral word like "reservation"? That's sounds much more acceptable, doesn't it? "Al-Yusef party of five? Oh yes, we have your reservation...right this way...I hope you find your accomodations to your liking...if you need anything at all, please let us know...the concierge is at your diposal." |
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Ichigo Kurosaki |
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Posts: 723 (17/01/09 22:02:15) |
Nazis didn't invent those camps; the BRITISH did in South Africa during the 2nd Boer War in a deliberate effort to commit genocide, since only women and
children were rounded up and placed in those camps by "Lord" Kitchener, the Butcher of the Boers...Hitler & Co. merely improved the efficiency of
such camps...
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Invunche |
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Posts: 3212 (18/01/09 16:53:02) Arch-Cynic
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Rambo123UK wrote: That's not true at all. Unlike you I simple don't think that all they do is wrong. Rambo123UK wrote: Yet, I never hear you went any anger at the Janjaweed or its Sudanese Government backers. Why is that? Rambo123UK wrote: I explained the point. I was especially talking about people's reactions to Israels actions. It seems Israel is able to generate anger that much viler regimes are not. Why is that? Rambo123UK wrote: The Darfur attacka are current an ongoing as well. Have been for a long time. And I don't buy your argument that you don't talk about Darfur because there's no Janjaweed supporters here. You'd talking about Gaza whether or not I was here. And again with the US. You really have to let it go. The colonies aren't coming back. just like the rest of the empire.
I have never had time for privileged people in safe countries who announce that they cannot see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. I gave
up on Amnesty International when it said that Guantanamo Bay, in which the guards killed no one, was the modern equivalent of Stalin's Gulag, through which
the secret police killed millions. - Nick Cohen
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Invunche |
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Posts: 3212 (18/01/09 16:57:13) Arch-Cynic
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Ichigo Kurosaki wrote: Thank you for once again avoiding relevance.
I have never had time for privileged people in safe countries who announce that they cannot see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. I gave
up on Amnesty International when it said that Guantanamo Bay, in which the guards killed no one, was the modern equivalent of Stalin's Gulag, through which
the secret police killed millions. - Nick Cohen
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Rambo123UK |
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Posts: 13761 (18/01/09 17:05:00) Tooth Fairy Agnostic |
The USA is, as I have previously pointed out, the only current superpower and thus their global influence is huge and practically unopposed. The iniquities
caused by their foreign policy are thus of the most pressing concern and to be railed against. What makes their crimes and abuses all the more egregious is
their attempt to paint themselves as the moral police of the world. It sticks in my throat, but then I always find bullshit hard to swallow.
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double
the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Sir Winston
Churchill
--- Bible Babble 
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Invunche |
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Posts: 3212 (18/01/09 17:18:55) Arch-Cynic
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So you're assuming that I'm not "outraged" about Darfur if I'm "outraged" about Israel? Isn't that a false dilemma fallacy? Isn't that like "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here...he he...now watch this drive"? You're new to this board so honestly I have no idea how you feel about Darfur. If you feel unfairly lumped in with "the people" I talked about then tough shit. Are you claiming that I'm diverting valuable outrage resources away from Darfur? Isn't it possible that I am also concerned about Darfur and many other humanitarian crises all over the globe at the same time as I am concerned about the situation in Gaza but that this thread deals with Israel, not Darfur? That is the reason for the "bias" in emphasis on Israel in this thread. There is no big debate over Darfur because, as Rambo pointed out, no one defends the Janjawid or any of the thugs who are killing people over there. I was merely suggestion that there is something "out of proportion" about the reaction towards Israel and asking why that is. And I'm not talking about the level of debate. I'm talking simple outrage. The fact that there's probably more consensus here on the Darfur issue doesn't really influence how outraged people feel about it. Israel is being characterized in terms harsher than anything I ever hear about the parties in Darfur (which is merely an example). There are, however, many specious arguments concocted by neo-con think tanks and televangelists, and repeated throughout the media, in defense of Israel's policies regarding the Palestinians. In fact, if anyone dares to be objective about Israel, including past U.S. Presidents, they are blacklisted, and immediately become the target of a propaganda campaign. Ok, so why aren't you talking about how the Arab world ignores the atrocities in Darfur and keep supporting the Sudanese government because they prefer Arab Muslims over African Muslims? Why isn't that a point of contention I hear debated on message boards? You've gone from deflecting toward Darfur to deflecting back to the person making the argument. You don't have to respect my opinions, or the people of Gaza, or anything else, Invunche, but you will need to put more thought into the substance of your own position than in making ad hominem attacks if you are to convince anyone that there is any merit to your argument. In a debate, an ad hominem means [click] you're out of ammo. Nice try. I was simply articulating how I feel about yours and Rambo's posts. That's not an attack. First of all, how did I acquire this power to subconsciously evoke vivid images in your mind? Is there a list of mental images that you would prefer that I not introduce into the Matrix? Again, deny and rationalize all you want. I just don't believe you. Also, "surrounded by a wall", did Israel build a wall that surrounds ALL of Gaza?
I have never had time for privileged people in safe countries who announce that they cannot see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. I gave
up on Amnesty International when it said that Guantanamo Bay, in which the guards killed no one, was the modern equivalent of Stalin's Gulag, through which
the secret police killed millions. - Nick Cohen
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Ichigo Kurosaki |
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Posts: 723 (18/01/09 18:43:15) |
China is our nemesis.
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Norsewulf.dubland |
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Posts: 138 (20/01/09 13:18:22) |
You're new to this board so honestly I have no idea how you feel about Darfur. If you feel unfairly lumped in with "the people" I talked about then tough shit.I never said anything about being "unfairly lumped in" with anybody. I said that your argument was based on a false dilemma fallacy. Your argument isn't "unfair", it's illogical. I was merely suggestion that there is something "out of proportion" about the reaction towards Israel and asking why that is. And I'm not talking about the level of debate. I'm talking simple outrage. The fact that there's probably more consensus here on the Darfur issue doesn't really influence how outraged people feel about it. Israel is being characterized in terms harsher than anything I ever hear about the parties in Darfur (which is merely an example)."Genocide", which is how everyone describes the events in Darfur, is harsher than "concentration camp" which is how I would describe Gaza, so I don't know what harsher terms you mean. Ok, so why aren't you talking about how the Arab world ignores the atrocities in Darfur and keep supporting the Sudanese government because they prefer Arab Muslims over African Muslims? Because the topic of this thread is Israel's actions in Gaza, and if I changed the subject to Darfur it would be seen as a pathetically transparent diversionary tactic. Why isn't that a point of contention I hear debated on message boards?One minute you indicate that I'm new to the board, and the next minute I'm suddenly responsible for all of the content that you view on the world wide web. I can't speak for everyone else. Why do you think the entire internet isn't buzzing with controversy over Arab Muslims politically favoring other Arab Muslims over African Muslims? Nice try. I was simply articulating how I feel about yours and Rambo's posts. That's not an attack.It's an ad hominem because it's directed against the arguers rather than the argument: "unless you...I have zero respect for your opinions" "when I read your posts of "outrage" they sound more like spoiled children..." Excellent. Now that we know how you feel about us on a personal level, can we get back to the discussion about Israel and Gaza? Again, deny and rationalize all you want. I just don't believe you. It doesn't matter whether you believe me or not, because the discussion isn't about me; it's about Israel and Gaza. Your attempts to divert the discussion to my motivations, my credibility, my character, my "agenda", etc...indicates that you are unwilling or unable to defend your position on Israel's actions and policies toward Gaza. Why is that? Also, "surrounded by a wall", did Israel build a wall that surrounds ALL of Gaza?Gaza is enclosed in a concrete wall on three sides, and the Mediterranean Sea on the fourth. The Israeli Sea Corps patrols the coast with submarines, patrol boats, and commando boats. The coast is also constantly monitored by helicopters and spy planes. A tiny 8 mile long section of wall at the border between Gaza and Egypt was built at the direction of, and under tremendous political pressure from the U.S. and Israel. Israel occuppies Gaza and controls everything going into and coming out of Gaza, including food, fresh water, and medical supplies. It is a concentration camp in every sense of the word, and Israel controls it, including the border fence between Gaza and Egypt. Let something happen to the wall between Israel and Gaza and see how fast Israel steps in to "help". http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/948051.html |
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Invunche |
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Posts: 3212 (20/01/09 18:24:20) Arch-Cynic
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It is not an ad hominem attack because I explained why I feel that way.
And again, it's not a diversion when I wasn't even talking about the attacks on Gaza. As I have stated several times I was specifically talking about how people overreact (in my opinion) to Israel's actions while seemingly not caring about much worse things going on in the world. Regarding the Egypt-Gaza border, don't you think it matters that Gaza is ruled by an offshoot to the most powerful opposition group in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood? If Egypt chose to open the order and help out the Palestinians I seriously doubt the US or Israel would do anything. That border is a perfect example of how the Arab world only cares about the welfare of Palestinians when it's political convenient.
I have never had time for privileged people in safe countries who announce that they cannot see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. I gave
up on Amnesty International when it said that Guantanamo Bay, in which the guards killed no one, was the modern equivalent of Stalin's Gulag, through which
the secret police killed millions. - Nick Cohen
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Norsewulf.dubland |
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Posts: 138 (23/01/09 01:27:33) |
And again, it's not a diversion when I wasn't even talking about the attacks on Gaza. As I have stated several times I was specifically talking about how people overreact (in my opinion) to Israel's actions while seemingly not caring about much worse things going on in the worldMy rebuttal to that line of defense is: a. your anectodal observations of the emotional reaction of people on the internet to the humanitarian crisis in Darfur has nothing to do with my questions regarding the efficacy or the moral justification of the actions of the Israeli government toward Gaza. b. by responding to questions and arguments about Israel and Gaza with a claim that Darfur is a more serious problem, appears to be an attempt to pre-empt or to prematurely silence the debate. In other words, I'm discredited for daring to question Israel's actions while the genocide in Darfur continues. By that same argument, no one should ever discuss anything but Darfur until the genocide stops. Darfur trumps everything...the sports scores, the weather, the inauguration, the treasury secretary, the equities markets, American Idol...your favorite rock band...I agree with you, by the way, about the first 3 Metallica albums. I still remember the charge of static electricity in the air when I first pulled the large vinyl Master of Puppets disc out of the jacket and set it on the turntable... c. I dispute your assumption that the genocide in Darfur is necessarily a "worse thing" than the current conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people, and by extension, the entire Middle East. Yes, many people have been senselessly killed in Darfur, but many people have also been killed in the Middle East over the last several decades, and the conflicts appear to be increasing in intensity. Terrorism, such as the acts committed on 9/11/01 in the U.S., and on 7/7/05 in the UK, and elsewhere all over the world, is rooted in the policies of the U.S. and Israel, and the unresolved issue of a Palestinian state. Pakistan and Israel have nuclear weapons. Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia have much of the worlds oil supply. The actions of Israel and the U.S. regarding Palestine and the Muslim world have global implications in a way that the tragic genocide in Darfur does not. . Regarding the Egypt-Gaza border, don't you think it matters that Gaza is ruled by an offshoot to the most powerful opposition group in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood? If Egypt chose to open the order and help out the Palestinians I seriously doubt the US or Israel would do anything. That border is a perfect example of how the Arab world only cares about the welfare of Palestinians when it's political convenient.I think it's a mistake to hold the "Arab world" accountable for the actions of its "leaders" who were neither democratically elected nor accountable to their people. The conflict between the U.S and Iran, for example grew from the fact that the U.S. government supported the dictatorship of the Shah, and even overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran by force, and prolonged the suffering of the Iranian people just so that certain American and British business interests could maintain access to their oil resources. The Iranian people turned to the Islamists as a populist revolutionary force of redemption to help them expel that brutal dictator and his exploitative colonialist sponsors. You're right that Mubarak is afraid of such a revolution within Egypt, and he has good reason to because his name is the only name that has appeared on the Presidential ballot for years. Again history repeats itself with Mossad and the CIA fighting to keep a sympathetic dictator in office while the people increasingly turn to the Islamists because no one else is listening to them. |
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Ichigo Kurosaki |
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Posts: 723 (23/01/09 10:59:15) |
We didn't merely "back" Pahlavi, we CREATED him! Until 1953, he was more like Queen Lizzie Deuce. The greater power was vested in the Prime
Minister. We overtrew that PM (Mohammed Mossadegh) on the basis of British lies that he was a communist. What the Brits were afraid of was a plan put forth by
the interior minister to nationalize the oil fields. Oil fields the Brits believe THEY owned. Britain was still up to its as in Korea and Malaya and could do
little, so they tricked us into doing their dirty work.
Pahlavi had even been expelled from Iran during WW2 because of his links to Hitler.
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