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Apr 4 08 10:48 PM
Tooth Fairy Agnostic
May 16 08 8:34 AM
May 22 08 11:58 AM
May 22 08 7:46 PM
And did Jesus ride an Ass, a colt or both, into Jerusalem? Did he ride an ass in, then go back out and ride in a second time on a colt, perhaps?
May 23 08 11:46 AM
May 23 08 4:18 PM
Sir Isaac Newton's "Theory of Gravity" has resulted in the death of thousands. Think on this: before Newton "discovered
gravity", nobody died in airplane crashes.
May 23 08 6:39 PM
May 23 08 7:04 PM
May 23 08 7:11 PM
May 23 08 7:32 PM
May 23 08 7:45 PM
May 26 08 9:59 AM
Jun 3 08 9:59 PM
Jun 4 08 1:14 AM
God Created the Universe. God Just Exists.
can be shortened to
The Universe Just Exists.
Via Occam's Razor.
Jun 7 08 10:22 AM
Feb 9 09 7:51 PM
Greasus (AKA Daystar) wrote:
I disagree. They kept the original language intact and gave an optional reading in the footnote to point out that the Hebrew word satan is not only applied
to Satan the devil; it is also applied to men and to righteous angels.
Satan is the word in Chr. It is the novel translation of 2 Sam that is in question.
I don't read or speak Hebrew, but even if Satan can and is applied to men or angels, the use in Chr at this point would have to be applied to a nation,
as the enemy of David, causing him to make war, and need to take a census to determine his fighting strength (less than the total number of men in the
country - from Anglo-Saxon sources we can see, for example, that in a feudal system a lord might expect to provide 1 armed man for every eight male tenants
he had, and a mounted man was worth at least 4 footsoldiers in a levy).
So, it would have to be shown that Satan in this case could be applied to a nation (or perhaps a king of an enemy nation) and explain why this is not made
explicit in the text, or why 2 Sam does not say that God moved that king or nation against David to incite him to take a census. However it does not read
Greasus AKA Daystar wrote:
David had not made up for the sins of Saul merely because God was entreated to the land. This wouldn't indicate that the famine was ended. What a
pleasant surprise! This is an unusually good application of logic and Scripture, (2 Samuel 21:14) though, Rambo. In this case it is incorrect.
v. tr. To make an earnest request of. To ask for earnestly; petition for. Archaic To deal with; treat. What is the point of god telling David what the cause
of the famine is, and David making atonement in the eyes of the lord if "intreat" is to be read as "begged for"? If it is begging, then
there is no mention of a response from god. Therefore it seems it should be read as the archaic useage, to treat with, strike a deal - David has made
atonement and the famine must therefore have been lifted.
But those 300,000 total forces of the Roman Empire include 150,000 - half of them - as auxiliaries - in other words, non-citizens, foreigners. The British
Army has always contained about 50% non-British forces. So your argument does not hold up. The numbers are a massive exaggeration.
Slingshots were among the most deadly weapons in the ancient world. Getting hit in the head, with the stone sinking in, would invariably be fatal. However, I
agree that decapiation either to make certain of the kill or for ritual purposes would not have been an unlikely consequence. Nevertheless, the bible
contradicts itself here.
Greasus AKA Daystar wrote:
The Targum holds to the tradition that Elhanan is to be identified with David. The Soncino Books of the Bible, edited by A. Cohen (London, 1951, 1952),
suggests the possibility of there having been more than one Goliath or that Goliath may have been a descriptive title like Pharaoh, Rabshakeh or Sultan.
Goliath is a personal name http://faculty.biu.ac.il/...oliath%20Inscription.html as such it may be that there
was more than one person so named, but more than one famous Goliath the giant? Unlikely. So in that case we must conclude Goliath is the same person.
Elhanan and the vale of Elah where the event is said to have taken place are too close to be unrelated. While I don't speak Hebrew, it seems to me that
Elhanan looks like an epithet that might mean "Of Elah" but I would have to research the etymology.
If so, then how could that be David? He did not come from that valley, he came from Bethlehem. So that cannot be the name of David. I notice in 2 Sam 23:24
that the name of Elhanan's father is Dodo - which would seem to be very simillar to the original Hebrew for David, DWDDWD "beloved uncle"
So you are saying it is a mistake or corruption of the text, not a contradiction. OK.
Feb 9 09 8:44 PM
Was it six or 8 days between Jesus foretelling his death and the tranfiguration?
If the number of days wasn't known exactly, why not just say a week?
One blind man cured or two near Jericho?
If this is not a contradiction, how many did he cure? 1, 2, 3 (2+1) or 4 (1+1+2)?
Oh, I know - maybe he did some on the way in, and some on the way out? Of course that doesn't solve the contradiction because it still doesn't work
(Mt 20:30, Mk 10:46 Lk 18:35)
Feb 9 09 11:45 PM
You don't have to read or speak Hebrew to know that the word Satan applies to other individuals. The word means resister and only applies to Satan the
Devil when it appears with the definite article ha. Ha satan. No one alive reads or speaks ancient Hebrew. I just told you. It applies to a righteous angel
who resisted Balaam at Numbers 22:22. It is applied to individuals that resist other men at (1 Samuel 29:4 / 2 Samuel 19:21, 22 / 1 Kings 5:4 / 11:14, 23,
2 Samuel 24:1 says: "And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when he incited David against them." (NWT) or "Again the
wrath of the Lord was burning against Israel, and moving David against them, he said, Go, take the number of Israel and Judah." (The Bible In Basic
At 1 Chronicles 21:1 the Hebrew word satan is used without the definite article ha, so Byington translates it "a Satan"; Young's translation
reads, "an adversary." This could be a person giving bad counsel, it could be, as I said in my original response (which should have been enough)
What does that have to do with anything? I think you tend to overcomplicate things a great deal.
We are talking about a general census. The army of Israel during the reign of David had well over 300,000 men. There were also a considerable number of
non-Israelite men fighting. (2 Samuel 15:18; 20:7) David instituted a system of rotation in which 12 groups of 24,000 (a total of 288,000) would serve one
month a year. 1 Chronicles 27:1-15.
It is difficult for me to follow you sometimes. I am thinking about one thing and you seem to be talking about another. This is even more difficult for me
because this thread is so old and I stopped posting in it because I had already told you everything you need to know in the first post.
The simple question you asked was who incited the census of David and the answer is that it doesn't really say. The word satan is used without the
definite article which means resister or adversary and could have applied to anyone.
God wasn't happy with Israel and had removed his protection so where he could have prevented it he didn't. He allowed it.
For some reason you reject this as atheists often will.
They consider a literal interpretation to be an ignorant and uninformed one. "The text says satan!" they say. "Yeah, okay." I say,
"What does satan mean?" They say something like "A boogeyman with a pitchfork!" and the next thing I know I am having to deal with the
At 2 Samuel 21:19 it says: "Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite got to strike down Goliath the Gittite ..." 1 Chronicles 20:5 says:
"Elhanan the son of Jair got to strike down Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite ..."
Greasus AKA Daystar wrote: The Targum holds to the tradition that Elhanan is to be identified with David. The Soncino Books of the Bible, edited by A. Cohen
(London, 1951, 1952), suggests the possibility of there having been more than one Goliath or that Goliath may have been a descriptive title like Pharaoh,
Rabshakeh or Sultan.
Which is exactly what I said again in the other post I made just today. A year later.
Some scholars, who may not have websites that you peruse, suggest the possibility that the name was a title, that there were others with the same name, just
as there were many Israelites named Joshua and many Brits named Jim and many Americans named David. Is it such a stretch?
There were two people named Elhanan, the son of Jair (1 Chronicles 20:5) and the son of Dodo of Bethlehem (2 Samuel 23:24).
The name means God Has Shown Favor; God Has Been Gracious.
Elah was a common name, its meaning having to do with El (God).
Of the five having the name was an Edomite sheik who probably lived in the village of Elath (Genesis 36:40-43); the son of Caleb and father of Kenaz of the
tribe of Judah. (1 Chronicles 4:15); the 4th king of the northern 10 tribe kingdom of Israel. Son of Baasha (1 Kings 16:1-14); the father of King Hoshea (2
Kings 15:30) and finally a descendant of Benjamin who lived in Jerusalem. (1 Chronicles 9:3-8)
It was also the place where David fought Goliath. In context with the name of this village it means Big tree.
Possibly because there was a big tree there.
It is probably the modern day Wadi es-Sant, one of the principal wadis that extend from the Philistine plains through the Shephelah into the mountainous
regions of Judah, about 15 miles (25 km) SW of Jerusalem.
Jul 7 09 4:33 PM
"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
" -- Exodus 21:23-25
"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39
Jul 7 09 6:00 PM
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