Rambo On Nazareth

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Daystar.pathwaymachine	Rambo On Nazareth	Lead	[-]
Posts: 251 (30/06/09 04:01:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None If you don't know me or if you are as stupid as Risky or Invunche you may not be well aware that Rambo is - well - my favorite Internet person. Now, the reason for this is because he is smart as hell, full of no bullshit (well not completely to capacity) and I don't know - he is real. He knows that of which he speaks. Now Jimbo is obviously pressed for time of late. Which I can relate to. I used to have to work 6 days a week and do this shit till my eyes were out of time. There we have it. I don't want to call Jim to puke up a bunch of references which would take up a great deal of time - most of the ignorant fucks who post here think that Al Franken is a God and apologetics can be wrapped around the finger of Japanese anemia or something as fucking stupid as that so who are we trying to impress other than ourselves. What that means is that other than having a chip on your shoulder and a stick up your ass you can squawk to my own delight . . . And . . . On . . . With . . . The Show. Nazareth. No notes. No time. Rambo. Burial places in archeology. What do they tell If you can't dig the fanfare I am saying to you that Nazareth existed because archeologically speaking if there was a burial place there - probably on a hill there would be a city nearby. On the opposite. You wanna play? The Pathway Machine
Rambo123UK		#1	[-]
Posts: 13622 (30/06/09 19:36:37) Tooth Fairy Agnostic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	OK, I'll bite: What are the problems with Jesus of Nazareth? Firstly, the etymology of Nazarene is apparently impossible to derive from Nazareth, and would appear to come from the name of a sect that has a connection to the Nazarite vow. So we can suppose that the place of Nazareth was wrongly attributed to him to explain his epithet by people who did not know the correct etymology - which seems to place the writing of the gospels outside the holy land, among the gentiles and hellenized Jews of the wider Greco-Roman world, which accords with what else we can determine through examination of the texts. Secondly there really is no good evidence that Nazareth existed c. 1BC (which is not, I admit, a reason in itself to reject its existence). There is certainly a settlement there at a later period, and a well of indeterminate age, and a burial place. The last is an important point, since Jewish law forbid having funerary places inside settlements (as did Roman law, though this was relaxed and then abandoned in later Imperial times, partly because of christianity). This is a problem then for any settlement at the place at the time. If the cemetery was in use at the time or recently before that, it would seem impossible to have a settlement there of any size. A few isolated farms outside the actual burial area in the valley would be the extent of it - which is not a town, let alone a city. I see what you're getting at though - burials indicate (nearby) occupation and settlement. True - but humans have, throughout history, gone to great lengths (literally) to bury people in places they found holy, special or traditional. Churches in the highlands are often built miles from villages and towns, back in the days before motor vehicles. Body bags are shipped around the world, from Vietnam and Iraq to Smalltown USA. Nelson's body was shipped back from Trafalgar to be buried in England weeks later. The fact that there is another known settlement barely a mile or so up the valley can easily explain the presence of burials, while stopping there being a settlement there - assuming Jewish law was being observed. However, since we know there was a settlement later, perhaps the Jews didn't adhere to their laws as strictly as may be imagined. This particularly intriguing when one considers that (according to one source I came across) that the settlement was swelled by the priests settling there after fleeing the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Interestingly this would be the period when the gospels were being written (after 70AD to the first couple of decades of the 2nd century). Thinking out loud, one almost wonders if the Gospel writers said he came from Nazareth as an oblique reference to where they identify him with the temple and its destruction. It's just a thought I'm rolling around in my head, nothing more than that, so don't make to much of it. Nazareth and Nazarene are something decidedly odd about the story, and you're right, I should perhaps attempt to address it further. "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
Daystar.pathwaymachine		#2	[-]
Posts: 251 (02/07/09 15:59:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rambo wrote: Firstly, the etymology of Nazarene is apparently impossible to derive from Nazareth, and would appear to come from the name of a sect that has a connection to the Nazarite vow. So we can suppose that the place of Nazareth was wrongly attributed to him to explain his epithet by people who did not know the correct etymology - which seems to place the writing of the gospels outside the holy land, among the gentiles and Hellenized Jews of the wider Greco-Roman world, which accords with what else we can determine through examination of the texts. The term Nazarene comes from the Hebrew Notsri (Greek Nazoraios) from nester meaning sprout and so figuratively "offspring." Isaiah 11:1 for example, talks about the sprout of Jesse. As for Nazarite vows, John was a Nazarite, Jesus wasn't. The Nazarite wouldn't cut their hair so people would know they were Nazarite, the word comes from the Hebrew nazir (un-pruned) which is also applied to grape vines being un-pruned. Rambo wrote: Secondly there really is no good evidence that Nazareth existed c. 1BC (which is not, I admit, a reason in itself to reject its existence). There is certainly a settlement there at a later period, and a well of indeterminate age, and a burial place. I could agree with most of that, though I don't put as much faith into methods of guessing dates as you might. Rambo wrote: The last is an important point, since Jewish law forbid having funerary places inside settlements (as did Roman law, though this was relaxed and then abandoned in later Imperial times, partly because of christianity). Hmmm . . . what in the world makes you think that was true in Bible times? Were the Kings not buried in the City of David? Samuel at his house? While it is true that the preferred burial place was usually on a hill in a cave, which would be outside of town, that wasn't always the case. Rambo wrote: I see what you're getting at though - burials indicate (nearby) occupation and settlement. True - but humans have, throughout history, gone to great lengths (literally) to bury people in places they found holy, special or traditional. Churches in the highlands are often built miles from villages and towns, back in the days before motor vehicles. Body bags are shipped around the world, from Vietnam and Iraq to Smalltown USA. Nelson's body was shipped back from Trafalgar to be buried in England weeks later. Very well, but the Hebrew practice of the time was to burry the same day, sometimes within hours of death. The Pathway Machine
Rambo123UK		#3	[-]
Posts: 13622 (03/07/09 00:55:26) Tooth Fairy Agnostic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The term Nazarene comes from the Hebrew Notsri (Greek Nazoraios) from nester meaning sprout and so figuratively "offspring." Isaiah 11:1 for example, talks about the sprout of Jesse. The standard answer, but far from a certainty. There are various things that raise doubts about this interpretation. I'll talk about them below. As for Nazarite vows, John was a Nazarite, Jesus wasn't. Certainly Jesus appears break any vow he might have taken, drinking wine and such like, and goes to visit the body of a person who he is told is dead, which would break another part of the vow, but I will return to this idea also. The Nazarite wouldn't cut their hair so people would know they were Nazarite, the word comes from the Hebrew nazir (un-pruned) which is also applied to grape vines being un-pruned. It comes from the word "separate" which means, as in English, to cut up, and thus to set apart - thus giving the meaning of "holy" or "consecrated" because they are set apart for god. I could agree with most of that, though I don't put as much faith into methods of guessing dates as you might. Dating "guesses" can be very good when you have nicely preserved, stratified deposits, pottery sequences and enough material to work with. If there's not much it's harder. Hmmm . . . what in the world makes you think that was true in Bible times? Were the Kings not buried in the City of David? Samuel at his house? While it is true that the preferred burial place was usually on a hill in a cave, which would be outside of town, that wasn't always the case. [quote] Ritual uncleanliness. Any areas in towns where there was a necropolis were separate areas specifically set aside for them. There would need to be areas for burials near large settlements to allow the quick burial Jewish law requires. [quote]Very well, but the Hebrew practice of the time was to burry the same day, sometimes within hours of death. I'm well aware of that, but as I say, there is a larger town just a mile up the road from Nazareth that could easily explain the burial useage. However, the existence of Nazareth at the time, which is somewhat dubious but subject to change upon better archaeological excavations (which is a rant for another day), is irrelevant to the existence of Jesus the Nazarene if the etymology is claimed to come from Nazareth - Nazaret. The Greek uses Nazoraios which cannot, as I say, be derived from Nazaret. Not that Matthew's "and he shall be called a Nazarene" (2:23) appears in the OT. Oh, and Mark in any case, uses Nazarenos (which he uses, apparently, to mean "Holy One of God" 1:24 - and Mark appears to make Jesus' home town Capernaum in any case...), and Nazorean appears as a term that may or may not be identical to Nazarene elsewhere in the NT. But if the Greek Nazoraios was derived from the pre-existing Hebrew of the NSR, Netzer (Notzri) "shoot" etymology then we should get Nasoraios instead. Furthermore, the Mandeans (the so-called followers of John the Baptist) call their enlightened priests Natsarenes. These may be the people who Epiphanius writes about and calls Nasarenes. In fact they may be one and the same. As you say, they took Nazarite vows, and Paul is persuaded to take four men "under a vow" with him (Acts 21:23) on his final Journey and pays for their expenses. The "vow" would suggest a link with the Nazarite vow, and thus, since these men were friends of James, we must assume they are associated with the Nazarenes, as the christians were called. Consider Jesus himself: He is baptised, as in a Mikvah. He himself is the sin-atonement sacrifice, and the last supper is the same food as the Nazarite brings when he is to end his vow. While he drank wine, look at Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. And Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Jesus swears off wine - which seems to me to indicate a type of Nazarite vow, and which makes it an irony or intentional slur when he is offered vinegar wine on the cross, of course. "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
Rambo123UK		#4	[-]
Posts: 13622 (03/07/09 23:41:07) Tooth Fairy Agnostic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm awaiting your further thoughts and comments. I know you've been back since I posted this! "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
WordClock		#5	[-]
Posts: 2579 (04/07/09 01:03:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I think this thread should be called "Rambo OF Nazareth"
Daystar.pathwaymachine		#6	[-]
Posts: 251 (04/07/09 03:27:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rambo wrote: It comes from the word "separate" which means, as in English, to cut up, and thus to set apart - thus giving the meaning of "holy" or "consecrated" because they are set apart for god. Singled out, dedicated or separated one, yes, but I was talking about where the word comes from. The Hebrew nazir meaning unpruned. Nezer comes from the same root and means "the holy sign of dedication" - the diadem worn by Israel's kings. What I am getting at is that there are various applications and similarities for these words. Nazarene applied to Jesus because he was the offshoot of Jesse, but also because he was from Nazareth. Not because he was one of the Nazarenes or Nazarite; a separated one who showed this by being nazir (unpruned) and the Kings wore a nezer. The etymology of Nazareth, you mentioned was uncertain, which is nothing unusual, but it probably means something to the effect of "sprout town" - you mentioned a larger city nearby? You see . . . now I, not unlike yourself, have some reservations about using the term city in application to Nazareth, and yet that is how it is used. Also, the term for city is the same as we use it today. Nothing wrong or misleading about that . . . Rambo wrote: However, the existence of Nazareth at the time, which is somewhat dubious but subject to change upon better archaeological excavations (which is a rant for another day), is irrelevant to the existence of Jesus the Nazarene if the etymology is claimed to come from Nazareth - Nazaret. But, like I said, Nazarene has no direct bearing on Jesus being from Nazareth. He was called Nazarene, accepted it, but there were different meanings. The Jewish sect, the town and the prophecy, sprout from Jesse. Nazareth from the Greek Nazaret, the Hebrew Natsereth. Nazarene from the Hebrew Notsri, probably from netser; the Greek Nazoraios. Rambo wrote: The Greek uses Nazoraios which cannot, as I say, be derived from Nazaret. Not that Matthew's "and he shall be called a Nazarene" (2:23) appears in the OT. Oh, and Mark in any case, uses Nazarenos (which he uses, apparently, to mean "Holy One of God" 1:24 - and Mark appears to make Jesus' home town Capernaum in any case...), and Nazorean appears as a term that may or may not be identical to Nazarene elsewhere in the NT. But if the Greek Nazoraios was derived from the pre-existing Hebrew of the NSR, Netzer (Notzri) "shoot" etymology then we should get Nasoraios instead. Then the only trouble you have with all of this is that some Christians have argued wrongly contrary to what you yourself have already correctly concluded? You are not listening to me? I don't see the problem. Rambo wrote: Furthermore, the Mandeans (the so-called followers of John the Baptist) call their enlightened priests Natsarenes. These may be the people who Epiphanius writes about and calls Nasarenes. In fact they may be one and the same. As you say, they took Nazarite vows, and Paul is persuaded to take four men "under a vow" with him (Acts 21:23) on his final Journey and pays for their expenses. The "vow" would suggest a link with the Nazarite vow, and thus, since these men were friends of James, we must assume they are associated with the Nazarenes, as the christians were called. So? Edit - This post is pretty bad. I have been editing the Pathway Machine all day and need sleep so cut me some slack if you would please. In as much as excuse the confusion. The Pathway Machine Last Edited By: Daystar 04/07/09 05:48:24. Edited 1 times.
tanaka.theseason		#7	[-]
Posts: 410 (04/07/09 05:13:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Remember that "Nazarene" was used as a pejorative, meaning, basically, worthless fellow, by the Jerusalem/Judean boys; they looked down on the Galileans, where Nazareth was situated. "Nothing good ever comes out of Nazareth" was a saying of the city folk.
Daystar.pathwaymachine		#8	[-]
Posts: 251 (04/07/09 05:45:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	tanaka wrote: Remember that "Nazarene" was used as a pejorative, meaning, basically, worthless fellow, by the Jerusalem/Judean boys; they looked down on the Galileans, where Nazareth was situated. "Nothing good ever comes out of Nazareth" was a saying of the city folk. Yes, and also to Christians though to be a break off sect of Judaism. (Acts 24:5) The Pathway Machine Last Edited By: Daystar 04/07/09 05:53:38. Edited 1 times.
Rambo123UK		#9	[-]
Posts: 13622 (05/07/09 00:53:48) Tooth Fairy Agnostic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Singled out, dedicated or separated one, yes, but I was talking about where the word comes from. But the discussions I have seen don't seem to agree that the derivation is the same. NZR, NSR and NtsR are are a triconsonantal root but would give different forms in Greek (and Aramaic, for that matter). What I am getting at is that there are various applications and similarities for these words. No argument there. Nazarene applied to Jesus because he was the offshoot of Jesse, Shoot being messianic symbology I accept. but also because he was from Nazareth. This I do not agree with. Notzri and Notzrim can't come from Nazaret. That would give Nazrati or simillar. On the other hand, Notzri becomes "Natzoriya" in Aramaic, which then could become in Greek Nazorean or Nazarene, just as we see in the NT. The 2nd century Gospel of Philip actually argues that the term Nazarene is from the Hebrew word Nazara, meaning truth, but no word even remotely similar to Nazara exists in Hebrew with a meaning like truth. According to the Talmud there was a person called Yeshu ha-Notzri who lived about 100 years before Jesus, and there are several other hints from ancient sources that such a group existed before 0AD. Not because he was one of the Nazarenes or Nazarite; a separated one who showed this by being nazir (unpruned) and the Kings wore a nezer. I had not come across the diadem "Nezer" before. But, like I said, Nazarene has no direct bearing on Jesus being from Nazareth. Sure it does. If he was called the Nazarene because he came from Nazareth, then there is no need for another etymology. If he was called it because of something else, why do you need to explain how he got the epithet via his hometown? He was called Nazarene, accepted it, but there were different meanings. The Jewish sect, the town and the prophecy, sprout from Jesse. What prophecy, eh? Mt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Where does it say that in the OT? I tell you what there IS - Judges 13:5, where we have very similar language used about Samson the Nazarite: For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. I assume you mean Isiah 11, but it mentions nothing about any "Nazarene", except if you believe that Nazarene itself means "the root". So? Edit - This post is pretty bad. I have been editing the Pathway Machine all day and need sleep so cut me some slack if you would please. In as much as excuse the confusion. In Acts, the early christians are associated with (Nazarite) vows. John is supposed to have paved the way for Jesus, and you tell me his followers were nazarites. We have people called Natsarenes or Nasarenes under Nazarite vows, and I have outlined the passages that suggest Jesus may be seen as having taken one too. I am simply pointing out that the possible etymology from Nazarite or simple association with them or a group who took nazarite vows is not so far-fetched. "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
tanaka.theseason		#10	[-]
Posts: 410 (05/07/09 07:00:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Daystar: have you looked at the term "nazarite" in the Strong's? It's number 5139 in the Hebrew dictionary. Maybe I can find an online source. Ah! There we go, me good chap! 5139 naziyr naw-zeer' or nazir {naw-zeer'}; from 5144; separate, i.e. consecrated (as prince, a Nazirite); hence (figuratively from the latter) an unpruned vine (like an unshorn Nazirite):--Nazarite (by a false alliteration with Nazareth), separate(-d), vine undressed http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=5139 False alliteration with Nazareth: take that and put it in your pipe and smoke it, Rambo.
Rambo123UK		#11	[-]
Posts: 13622 (07/07/09 23:04:41) Tooth Fairy Agnostic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Notice also Dave that in Mk 15 and Mt 27 Jesus refuses the wine on the cross. "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
Daystar.pathwaymachine		#12	[-]
Posts: 251 (09/07/09 05:15:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rambo123UK wrote: Notice also Dave that in Mk 15 and Mt 27 Jesus refuses the wine on the cross. The Wine on the cross? Fucking idiot? Is that what you are going to say to me now? The wine on the cross? Why don't you say something that makes sense to me like the cool-aid on the dick. Don't fuck with me stupid. Don't fuck with me on stupid. Not that you are stupid. But what you say is stupid. You should know that. Whats the gaul on the torture stake. You want to rehash 2,000 years of stupidity that is your thing, you want to pull your head out of your ass that I would like to see. Now, Jim, I can see you doing it, but it would be a suprise to me. Think about that.
Daystar.pathwaymachine		#13	[-]
Posts: 251 (09/07/09 05:18:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	tanaka wrote: Daystar: have you looked at the term "nazarite" in the Strong's? It's number 5139 in the Hebrew dictionary. Maybe I can find an online source. Ah! There we go, me good chap! 5139 naziyr naw-zeer' or nazir {naw-zeer'}; from 5144; separate, i.e. consecrated (as prince, a Nazirite); hence (figuratively from the latter) an unpruned vine (like an unshorn Nazirite):--Nazarite (by a false alliteration with Nazareth), separate(-d), vine undressed http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=5139 False alliteration with Nazareth: take that and put it in your pipe and smoke it, Rambo. Do you honestly think that I am subject to the limitations of STRONGS? Fuck you.
Rambo123UK		#14	[-]
Posts: 13622 (09/07/09 10:35:25) Tooth Fairy Agnostic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	We've already done the cross v "torture stake" thing. You lost, remember? "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble Last Edited By: Rambo123UK 09/07/09 10:54:42. Edited 1 times.
tanaka.theseason		#15	[-]
Posts: 410 (11/07/09 03:24:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Daystar wrote: tanaka wrote: Daystar: have you looked at the term "nazarite" in the Strong's? It's number 5139 in the Hebrew dictionary. Maybe I can find an online source. Ah! There we go, me good chap! 5139 naziyr naw-zeer' or nazir {naw-zeer'}; from 5144; separate, i.e. consecrated (as prince, a Nazirite); hence (figuratively from the latter) an unpruned vine (like an unshorn Nazirite):--Nazarite (by a false alliteration with Nazareth), separate(-d), vine undressed http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=5139 False alliteration with Nazareth: take that and put it in your pipe and smoke it, Rambo. Do you honestly think that I am subject to the limitations of STRONGS? Fuck you. I think that, in your unique case, the sky is the limit for you - literally. Fuck you, too.
Rambo123UK		#16	[-]
Posts: 13622 (04/09/09 22:45:19) Tooth Fairy Agnostic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thomas L. Thompson in the Messiah Myth (pages 63-4) suggests that the connection between the Nazir, Nezer and Nazareth is deliberately made by the author of Matthew and that the story of Jesus' birth being like Samson's is a deliberate reference to Jesus being likened or identified as a Nazarite like Samson - set onto that path even before birth. "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble

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